Some more questions for our 1/32 bloggers.
I'm most familiar with 1/72 scale and the optimum height runs from about 23mm to 24mm. Some of the old Matchbox stuff is under 23mm - somewhat acceptable. And some of the newer products from others are 24.5 or so, again somewhat acceptable. We're talking about a 4.25% variation that is acceptable.
The same 4.25% variation to the 54mm figure translates to a range of 51.7mm to 56.3mm. Some of the heroic 1/32 figures are mentioned as 60mm figures.
So are 60mm figures workable with 54mm figures? Your thoughts please.
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24 comments:
I can use without problems figures who represent acceptable human sizes and mix them, provinding that some components, as weapons, have standard sizes. Unfortunatly this is unlikely to happen and is much more visible in larger scales, rising an incompatibility issue.
Another question is that we have volume, not just linear comparison and the same 4.25% translate into more than 75%, if proportions are kept. The larger the volume, the bigger the difference to our eyes and in become very much difficult to mix, even if keeping the same proportions.
As nuno says, volume is the issue - compare your horses with Zvezda - the "volume" size difference is enormous - not only do they not match in units, but actually quite silly on the table top.
I collect acw 54mm and now nappy stuff too. I collect all ranges and mix the manufacturers within groups of 8 figures per unit. Once painted and based (2mm mdf)I lose some of the 1:32 scale inrterpretation between manufacturers.
Conte/TSSD.Cunnynham etc are the largest acceptable size for my acw figs. I mix these with Imex, AiP, Italeri ACTA and Accurate plus some odd BMC, Timpo etc. I even have a few Britains and Shenandoah metal figs in the collectrion. I am a wargamer after all.
RE napoleonic. I find the Airfix, AiP, Italeri ACTA and Accurate mix in ok with HaT. I will probably put a 1mm card extra base under the Airfix chaps. The Victrix stuff is HUGE. I think I will not be able to put them on the table unless I say thay are a Unit of Kings Ogres! Probably have to sell them. Darn shame they screwed with the 54mm scale beyond all reason. They could have had a real hit. They are so much bigger than Conte stuff to me particulalry in overall mass.
Stick to your own interpretation of 1:32 scale - seems good to me. Now why did YOU ask this question?
cheers
Alex D
Hatblogger,
You've created a new scale:) 'Heroic 1/32'!
So instead of that can we just call it what it is 60mm.
As mentioned by other posters here it is not just a hieght problem it is a volume thing. The concept that everyone is different heights is always flawed by the plain fact that although people are different sizes weapons aren't!
'So are 60mm figures workable with 54mm figures?'
NO, is the simple answer for me and hundreds of other collectors/Modellers they are NOT compatible. Wargamers will feel differently ,of course.:)
The base of a figure also makes a massive difference to compatibilty the 'Heroic 1/32' guys are on mounds of scenery, which makes the difference even more noticeable, but they are required due to bad figure design to make the pose work. This is where yours work better as they are all on flat bases.
Dave M
yes bases are a factor. I cut the bases of my conte etc big fellows. Brings em down a notch !
@Alex D, I asked that question because some 1/32 bloggers said that they could mix n match 60mm with 54mm and some said they couldn't.
FWIW scale is never a great concern for me. I collect plastic toy soldiers - that for me is something between 50 and 60 mil. So I am well short of a purist in this regard. I agree with Alex above and find all of those brands he mentions as being, by and large, compatible, esp around Napoleonic's and ACW.
Scale questions of height and mass need also to acknowledge what, I understand, the war gamers refer to as ground scale. This muddies the whole thing for my tiny mind and says that a certain amount of approximation is fine. Is/was there a company that produces figures to a particular scale and thus is the benchmark? I have figures going back many years and I'd suggest that there has always been scale variations between manufacturers and often, within any particular manufacturer.
I like the size and feel of the current HAT figures and find they fit nicely with my collection.
Thanks
Neil A
As a gamer, I had mixed a variety of manufactures when I built my 28mm Napoleonic armies. Foundry, Old Glory, Redoubt, Front Rank and Minifigs all mixed in my 1809 Austrian and French forces. I always believed that the Grenzers needed to be smaller than the line troops and the heavy cavalry and grenadiers needed to be bigger.
For this reason, I do not have a problem of mixing 54mm and 60mm figures, BUT I want my Napoleonic guard and Heavy Cavalry to be bigger than light infantry. Thus, I have no problem with the 60mm Russian Supreme figures going against Italeri French cav or even Airfix Line, but I can not use the Airfix or ESCI Old Guard figures. As to Victrix, If they ever release their French Grenadiers in hard plastic, I will buy a set or two to make my Old Guard, as these guys should tower over the rest of the mortals. But I agree that it is unlikely that the 4 boxes of British that I bought will ever be used with the other figures I own. It is after all, the same reason that I have a hard time using ACTA carabiniers, even when mounted on the larger Italeri Dragoon horses.
Adrian
Yes agree Adrian - While I don't have much concerns about scale, compatibility within a figure is important particularly, say a horse and rider. For that reason my preferred French heavy cavalry will probably always be the Britain's Detail range (despite some deficiencies). These made good chunky riders and in mass always seem about to overwhelm all before them. The other makes always seem to end up riding along behind.
It can make a HUGE difference. I can send you pix of various scales of ACW, Andy Gard 60mm ACW compared to Marx 54mm figures - or even the somewhat fuller and larger looking Conte's. Then there are the IMEX, Accurate, figures. Some mix better than others, but 60mm stand out like a sore thumb. I love Andy Gard's ACW (sentimental favorites from my childhood but they stand head and shoulders above the others). bTSSD's figures match Conte's but seem to bridge the gap.
As far as Napoleonics go, the Marx Mexicans (shako hat) are on the small side and go well with the CTS Mexican/Napoleonics which were designed as their compliments. ACTA match as well. They are noticably smaller (thinner) than Airfix, Timpo, and your figures but its not too noticable. Conte's figures (supposedly 54mm) are giants compared to them (so are their Alamo defenders). Cherilea's 60mm guys are huge, too (won't even talk about the poses), as are Reamsas. You can definitely tell the difference.
Your Nappies fit well with Airfix and Timpo, which IMHO is right where they need to be. Again, JMO.
Don't even try to match the classic Marx WWII with the new stuff by TSSD or Conte (particularly their Germans).
Ancients generally are larger. 60mm is more the scale so hats figure seem smaller that most.
TSSD, Weston,Cunyhams I would put as large 1/32"s Conte as a bit to large 1/32's Hat as true 1/32 Aip as ok , Barzo eary stuff as small 1/32-They are growing. CTA as ok barring there cavalry which are annoyingly small.Classic is good size wise. Italari Cavalry (nap) as spot on most of there stuff is good re size. I could go on.....
in short to me close enough is OK.
Here is the way that 'BRITAINS LTD' scaled their figures, details taken from the back of the 1965 plastic catalogue.
'FACTS ABOUT BRITAINS MODELS
STANDARD SIZE
We have taken a man 5ft.8in. high standing erect and excluding headgear, reduced him to
2 1/8 in. which is a reduction of 32:1 or a scale of 3/8 in. = 1 ft. This is the constant scale to which all our models are made and is nown as 'Standard Size'. '
The illustration showing how the figures are measured also has the measurements in the metric system, 2 1/8 in. = 5.4 cm. 1 cm = 32 cm or 1:32nd scale.
Apparently the scale was invented by BRITAINS to insure that all their 'Standard Size' Toy soldiers matched up with each other and customers buying any product marked 'Standard Size' knew it would be compatible with other sets from that size range.
The height of 5 feet 8 inches was thought to be the average for a male at that time, pre 1940.
Dave M
@Dave, thanks for that interesting information. Do you know who made the first 1/32 plastic figures? And who made the first plastic 60mm figures?
Hatblogger,
I believe that BRITAINS made the first plastic figures but there are also cases to be made by AIRFIX and some other companies.
The 'BRITAINS 1940' catalogue states that BRITAINS made their first Toy soldiers near to the beginning of the company in 1860. Lead then ,of course:) Their first range of Plastic figures came out in 1953.
The rumour mill suggests that the first 60mm figures were made in the USA .It was felt that Americans being generally bigger than Europeans, at the time, that the average man was 6 feet tall, so the calculation automatically made them taller and add to that the misunderstanding that the measurement was from the ground to the eyes , 60mm was born.
I don't know a lot about the various older US Companies but I think it was probably MARX that made the first 60mm ranges in the form of the 'SOLDIERS OF THE WORLD' series. Interestingly they made a 30mm range in the U.K. which were pantographed down from the 60mm range Masters.
Over the years economics have played a role in the figure hieght, during a down turn the figures got smaller as it made the molds cheaper and on 'Good' years stayed static. This is why MARX figures go from 45mm up to 60mm and why AIRFIX figures went from good big 54mm down to a slim 1/35 scale at the end of the Company in 1980.
Hope this answers your question.
Dave M
60mm was established on the continent as a (metric) composition size, leading to the Railway gauge G (1:29 - 10.5mm to 1 foot) sometime around the turn of the century. 54mm is the Railway gauge 1 (another common tin-plate size) and Britains held-off on plastics until a lot of their competitors had already got into them, at which point they approached Zang to develop the Herald range, Zang having already worked with Timpo and others.
Maverick Collecting,
That's interesting stuff.
Would you happen to know when the Railway Gauge 'G' changed to the current size of 1:22.5 ,70mm figure size, used by the German companies that make compatible buildings, figures and accesories?
Which company in the U.K. made the first 1:32 scale plastic figures ?
I know that Timpo produced some of their metal figures as plastic, would you know what year that was?
Thanks for any additional info.
Dave M
European G can be 75mm but is more normally 80mm, 70mm has a ratio of 1:25.
Mid to large scales
Airfix imported/carried the Beton/Ajax mounted figures in cellulose-acetate 1947 and advertised their stand alone set of 8 poses in '49, these can be polystyrene or polyethylene plastic and were produced/marketed soon after in Australia by Fethalite with some name changes. None of the above produced the first figures in plastic, they were produced by the German Red Cross which ran between 1933 and 1944. The soldiers dating from at least two National drives in February 1940 and March 1941. A regional drive in Berlin in January '42 produced the best set; hand-painted ceremonials of the Berlin Gardecorps uniforms between 1813 and 1942.
Ant this doesn't make the three any clearer...
Wikipedia
I suspect that the old 60mm was the much exported 'G' of Bing, Marlklin, Lineol et. al. Which the Americans must have stuck with while the Europeans moved to LGB? The 75mm is probably the Brits being difficult - again!!!
Wow, a lot of knowledge here. What's the story behind Timpo?
Hatblogger,
Did some quick research on
TIMPO.
Created in 1946 importing and making Hollow cast metal figure ranges.
Started to change to Plastic figures from Hollow Cast figure molds about 1953.
Created their first designs of Plastic figures from new molds about 1955.
Stopped producing figures in 1981.
Went out of business 1983.
The 'Wikepedia' quote above is not accurate (when is it ever:)), the UK have never had a tradition of 75mm figures, it's a continental European scale .
Dave M
The 75mm was a joke!
Hatblogger, best thing to do is buy either; Plastic Warrior's Timpo Special, now deleted but turns up on evilBay from time to time, or; Alfred Plath's book 'Timpo Toys the Golden Years', link to be found on PW's webite.
Plastic Warrior can also furnish you with a link to Michael Maughan's book 'The A to Z of Timpo' on the same subject. Alfred Plath also produces a DVD of original Timpo factory footage.
PW futher produce a checklist of the solids to compliment MM & Plath's books, which deals with the pull-apart 'Swoppits'.
Ally Gee set up Toy IMPOrters (TIMPO) on the 8th December 1938, registering the Model Toys name in 1943. Sometime in 1946/47 he bought the old Stoddart hollow-cast moulds. Around the same time - Zang as 'Modern Packaging' was supplying the composition figures.
Norman Tooth joined in 1950 to start designing original figures, prior to which all had been bought-in or produced from other people's old moulds.
The previously registered 'Model Toys' became Timpo's trading name in '53, with Timpo being retained as a logo/trade-mark, Timpo-toys was wound up and a franchise to sell Lindberg kits in the UK financed the change-over to plastics.
The company was wound-up in 1979
[The rest is to be read in the above mentioned publications!]
Axel Sohnius' Timpo Solids site
Alfred Plath's Timpo Site
Didier Cordy's Timpo site
Toyads Timpo Catalogue
Repacked for Ohio Arts
Michael Köhler's Timpo Figures
Cool Nero's Timpo Conversions (turn your speakers down!)
Aufstellfiguren's Timpo Page
Michael Maughan's last known eMail; miketimpo@aol.com
Thanks for the great links!
I like 54mm best. I have trouble blending figures from different scales in, they just don't look right. Another problem I have is not taking actual size of people into account. The Marx Japanese in 54mm appear to be the Imperial Basketball team, as most of those figures are as tall or taller than the Marines. Same with the Mexicans, particularly the Conte ones.
Still, since I have a thousand or so Marx Civil War I really would like them to stay in the 54mm range.
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