Thanks to all, the cavalry problem seems to be solved. Now to tackle another question that's been on the lips of many from the forum. What about Napoleonic artillery? That's an even thornier problem.
With artillery, we're coming up against the same problems - 2 molds. And worse, people are going to need even less artillery than cavalry. After all, how many guns do you need per set up?
May I suggest the same solution? Making sets of gunners only. We can either do a few cannon later, or better, buy cannons which are already available from other manufacturers. What do our blog readers think about that?
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58 comments:
As many guns are used by different countries, I would do them with accessories in one box and six figure crews in another and allow customers to mix them, with two sprues each box.
hi - artillery figures on their own would be useable - we could utilise Timpo cannons or Italeri, A Call to Arms and the brilliant examples made by Armies in Plastic etc....
HAT can easily expand on this by making the Artilery crews for those not already covered.
No need to make British foot or Horse Artilery or French Foot and Guard Foot and Horse Artillery as they are already available in 1/32nd / 54mm plastic.
What hat could make is Russian, Austrian, Hesse-Darmstradt, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese etc.. not currently made - hat could sell a box with 3 x sprues each having 6 figures and a few accessories.
Simples!!!!
Regards
9th
A battery of guns was 6-8 guns, I think most collectors would be willing to pay a bit more for cavalry and artillery that was done right? I know that I would. The problem with crews without guns is that the guns of different nations were different and a french style gun might be a cheap way out for all nations but, would not be correct. And the only other guns out there in plastic are french and british guns.
I think the gun and one gun crew per box would be the way to go and just charge a price that would off set for the lack of sales demand and make one set first and release it and see how it sells??? Do something that hasn,t been done yet and that would go with the sets you have already released. How about Russian or Prussian? Maybe even Austrian because thats a set thats harder for figure converters to make on there own?
I say test the waters with a completle set and see how it sells and if it does well we can all look forward to a more complete Napoleonic future!
FISH!!!!
A box with 6 artillery figures on a sprue with (here I come again), different heads or hats to cover different periods or... nations...
A sprue with the choice between a normal barrel and a howitser.
I'd love to see your, complete, 1/72nd Wurttemburg Artillery set scaled up to 1/32nd.
Using FISH's argument you could use the set to 'test the waters'.
Regards
Taran
Exactly what helmet2008 said above.
Sscott
There is a great need for Napoleonic artillery sets, not British or French, but Austrian, Russian and Prussian. Unfortunately these countries do not use French or British cannons, but their own, especially the Russians. The idea of producing the artillery crews only is not satisfactory at all, it may work only for the German allies of the French and the British allies. However Hat can produce a set with artillery crews, as horse and foot had in most cases different uniforms, and the guns of different calibers for each army in another [we need licorns (unicorns) for the Russians]. I think this arrangement will work good.
British & French AIP have done a great job there.
So i would like to se hat do a Russian set i could fit about 20 guns on my dio table.
but i will refuse to buy a set that has no gun.
Rob C
I'd like to suggest a release of three sprues of the 6 artillery figures. You could then have another release of three sprues of the corresponding artillery pcs. This would ensure sales of each release equally. I would also increase the price on these sets the same as the command sets if you are worried about the limited sales of these releases. I would suggest the same with the calvary.
I agree that French and British guns and crews have been done by Italeri (very nice detailed French gun and howitzer), ACTA and AIP (nice figures but the gun barrels lack dolphins). ACTA has figures in one box and the gun in another. I like the AIP packaging the best, with 5 gunners and 1 gun with two barrels per box.
I would like to see a Prussian crew and a 6 pound gun, along with a Bavarian 6 pound gun and crew. As the Bavarians used Austrian guns, Austrian gunners could use the same 6 pound gun. I would also like to see a small Austrian battalion gun, so a smaller gun could be sold with the same Austrian crews. I also agree that providing a number of barrels would give a choice as to which gun is being represented (for example: howitzer, 6 and 12). If HAT markets 3 artillery sets - a Prussian field gun and crew, an Austrian field gun and crew and an Austrian battalion gun and crew, it could easily represent the guns of both the Prussians and Austrians.
The Russians represent the most difficult force to put together, as the foot, horse and Cossack artillery wore different uniforms and the Russians used a variety of guns. Now there is a Russian gun and crew in the Supreme playset, but the figures are bigger than 54mm and the gun is a straight barrel cannon. Perhaps if HAT made three Russian sets, a set of Russian horse artillery with a smaller gun and a licorne barrel, Cossacks with the same 6 pound gun and a 10 pound licorne barrel (or the 3 pound gun) and a set of Russian foot artillery with a big 12 pound gun and a 20 pound licorne barrel, then the major Russian artillery forces would be covered. Thus, with a total of six sets, HAT could field the artillery of three major powers.
Another aspect of artillery that HAT should think about is cassions and limbers. There is a French limber set out there, but British still need one. As I understand it, the Prussians used the British and Russian sets, so making a Russian and a British set would not only look very cool on the table, but provide support for three armies.
Keep it simple. Do the crews for the nations for which you are making infantry that do not have artillery out there already. Equip them with alternate head choices where appropriate. For example the Austrians could have Corsican hats and bicornes.
The cannon could be tackled later and be on its own development path since there seem to be more production problems that need to be solved. Hat should have at least one "house gun" if a full line of cannons types is just not practical.
One problem with contracting with another manufacturer is that somewhere down the line, probably at an inopportune moment, something could happen to the relationship.
There is one metal figure manufacturer who is producing artillery crews and using cast metal Penncraft guns, the cannons you see in museum and battlefield gift shops, to complete the sets. I'm not suggesting that you follow this particular example.
Whatever happened to the SYW Prussian artillery masters shown in May 2009? Does this mean that they will be getting back into the pipeline?
yes artillery at 1 / 32. for me 18 Gunners per box does not bother me, guns for later
Gunners Austrian, Prussian, Russian are my preference. I wish Artillery Napoleonic hat will perhaps do so.
Just the figures would do. Prussian and Austrians a good start.
Vince
Ok, having spent the weekend spending a lot of money buying up stocks of HaT, Italeri and AiP 54mm soldiers, my two pennies worth:
Prussians - you have some great infantry, with landwehr to follow. They need guns. I know they are not the same as French, but if it means the difference between crews or nothing, then please, please, PLEASE consider making some Prussian crew - foot and/or horse. If you want to try a gun as well, then I am in. I need 8 or 12 model guns to start with.
Then, making some alternative French crews would be good, and would sell well IMHO. The AiP I have just picked up are nice, but limited, and repetitive when using 8 to 12 guns.
The Italeri guns and limbers seem fine for me, so I am not sure how you will make in-roads into those. But I will be using the French limbers for my Prussians, so you could make alternative horse drivers for each nation. I am realistic enough to know I am never going to see you make a 6 horse Bavarian limber team - but some drivers?
Russians - yes, the guns are different, so when you get around to these, then maybe a crew and gun would be worthwhile.
But can I please add my vote for you to support your current ranges first - Prussian, French, then the Wuttemberg/Bavarian maybe, then the newer stuff.
Finally, not artillery, but those Prussians need cavalry - and dragoons/landwehr must be top of the pile, surely?
Thanks
contrary to other people here, I am not too happy with guns from, say Italeri. Simplified, but in 54 mm you need more details.
Again, the answer to this question about artillery has to do with what kind of use you have for them. I suppose that wargamers want armies, whereas the superpainters want quality even if this means few figures because in their case, quality counts for more than quantity.
So one canon + the appropriate number of crew in a box will works fine for me. It will take a long time to finish only one such set but marvelous pieces of dioramas will be possible.
HÄT might sensibly decide for a compromise, but remember the definition of a good compromise: Nobody is satisfied!
Lemche
While the AIP guns appear to be fairly good, I've never been too fond of their figures (except for their recent F&I War figures which are based on John Jenkins' molds); One gun with crew per box seems to be the most used format. One of the things that kept me from ACTAs English Civil War Artillery pieces was the prohibitive price per gun and separate sets for crewmen. One of the major reasons I stay away from Italeri 1/32 scale is the prices due to the exchange rate (I assume). I don't mind paying a decent price for figures but want the most "bang for my buck." So I pass many sets by unless I can get a bargain on them. I guess I'm just cheap.
Its should be pointed out that its NOT just wargamers that want numbers.
There are plenty of Diorama guys that like numbers too.
Rob C
In the UK, and these prices are just an example in British Pounds from a online shop, AIP artillery sets (gun + crew) cost 11.90 while ACTA sells the gun and boxes with 4 crewsof 4 figures for 4.99. This means that for 4 guns + crews AIP cost 47.60 while ACTA cost 24.95. I find ACTA system more flexible and allowing better results. Besides, I consider ACTA guns and figures much better than those from AIP, so I don't have any doubts about my choice. In the USA, things may be different, but we are in a global market and HaT products will be competing worldwide.
My approach will be similar to ACTA and would start with crews and guns in separate boxes for the more popular nations n the beginning, because that is what ensure sales and profits to release sets from smaller armies who are maybe more needed, but will be selling less.
I also agree with helmets comments.Also,Wurtemberg,Bavarian artillery to accompany existing infantry sets
You guys just don't get it,do you, the same outlay costs apply wether you put the artillery piece and crew in one box or seperate boxes you still need to make two moulds ,one for the gun and one for the crew.
Using other manufacturers guns would not work as it is not possible to control the supply, then you have the additional problem of matching Hat figures to the size of the other companys' guns, AIP guns are Big compared to ACTA ones for example.
If you only made the figures in a box and the customer had to find the gun himself , this simply would not work, if you walk into a hobby store you can buy Hat sets but you cannot buy seperate guns by any manufacturer.
So why buy the figures at all.
It would appear that the comments on this Blog come from Wargamers and not from the 'normal' buyers. The 1/72 scale guys get what they need in a box from 'Hat',so why not the 1/32 scale guys. Wargamers alone can not sustain the profits of a company ,the product has to reach a bigger market place.
The 1/32 scale is a sustainable product, after all it's been around for a long time, but historically it only works it it easily avaiable. At the moment you can walk into a hobby store and buy any of the 1/72 scale sets but cannot get the 1/32 scale ones, they either don't stock them or buy so few that they sell out quickly. If 'Hat' can make profits on making sets that you can't find, then making Cavalry and Artillery should not create an economic concern for them.
Personally I like the NEW look of the figures compared with their early efforts, but I and several other toy soldier guys I know haven't given Hat any money YET! as they are concentrating on two periods that hold little interest for us. I don't see the reasoning behind limiting their market, they do some great stuff in 1/72 and we are hopeful that someday ,before we retire, that they will upgrade some of them to our scale. If we have any interest in Napoleonic it would be for the Pennisular Campaign (the only one not done yet) - British Light Infantry, British 95th Rifles, British Highlanders, French Lancers, French Dragoons (mounted and dismounted), Spanish Guerrilas(mounted and foot),Portugese Infantry and Spanish Infantry,for obvious reasons.
Lastly, it is not good business practice to rely on the other guy to make stuff to fill in your ranges and equally to not make stuff because they already did. NO figure manufacturer current or old as EVER made totally compatible figure ranges, sometimes even within their own ranges,so not to make set because someone already did doesn't hold true. Ideally we would like to buy a complete range done by the same company, to the same style and same scale, is a pipe dream that possibly 'Hat' could fulfill.
Thanks for reading this rant.
Anonymous rants are pointless here and obviously he don't understand what are differences between investing in a new boxes or continue a already existing line neither the flexibility of having figures and guns apart. Besides, the initial comment is offensive as he believe he owns the truth.
There also is a difference between relying in future products from other companies or using existing produts in the market. Sustainable products don't mean that all companies who make them have profits and the argument that just because are around for year, can be done for each and any company with profit.
Larger moulds cost more and we must understand that HaT should be prudent in this period because many economies aren't in good shape.
I could go on and on, but the anonymous user above don't understand what some people try to tell to keep this investmente profitable.
What do you collector guys want from a HaT box of soft plastic figures? Surely the Historex range (and are there other similar ranges? Not my market) are super detailed. Surely from HaT we want affordable and good sets. In 1/72, we accepted haT's early forays and have seen quality and accuracy improve. But key surely is getting a good compromise out there so that the market can take off in terms of sales.
But I do think we need to be careful about calling people names etc. As a wargamer, I probably have different aims and objectives to collectors (ie people who just buy them for the shelf); I will buy lots of sets, and I want them to look good and accurate (ie not Timpo), but I do not need "rivet counter" detail - for example, the Italeri guns seem fine to me. I have not measured them, or compared to plans etc. But they look like a nicely detailed, good size gun.
So let's try and help HaT make products we can gree on, at a price/cost model that lets them continue to make money.
Peace from a wargamer
Hi There,
I have noted your comments Nuno M.Cabecadas and my first statement is accurate, for every plastic piece a mould has to be produced. So if you can have a 6 figure crew only in the mould ,then you have to have another mould for all the pieces that make up the Gun.
When ACTA first produced their idea of having the Artilery crews(4 of them) in one box and a single artillery gun in another toy soldier collectors did not like it and did not want to buy them ,as it would mean that they would have 12 figures spare or have to buy 4 single guns to use up all the crew. The figure dealers started re-packing the set as one gun and 4 crew at the Toy Soldier Shows and the collectors started to buy them.
I have re-read my post and agree that the use of the word normal could be read differently than intended , so please replace it with the word average. By average I mean the hobbyist that walks into a hobby store and buys a product off the shelf to paint and display, covert for dioramas or to play with his kids with. This is the majority of sales.
I am not a 'rivet counter' either, if you do that then you are considered a Military Modeller, which is a different hobby entirely.
What I am looking for in a set of soft plastic figures is accuracy of human proportions and positions,nice detailed faces. I like equipment in the correct position, so that I don't have to move too much around, this is a problem with some ACTA figures and occasionally with other manufacturers.
In my experience wargamers have a different outlook on what they want, which I do not have a problem with as I have done some Skirmish Games in the past, however they tend to be quite specific in their needs. More specific than the majority hobbyist or 'you collector guys' as you call us, who you may be surprised to find out ,don't generally buy Historex kits.
I don't believe any of the content of my post was against HAT and thought that the point of these Blogs was to get a varied opinion on the subject.
I would be happy to buy HAT figure sets when they make something that fits in with my interest. The closest set I have been tempted with is the 'Wurtemburg Jagers', in action and Command sets, although I would not have wanted the additional loading guy in the command set preffering another action pose. I just have to look to see what I can convert them into before I take the plunge.
Regards
Again, an anonimous post from somebody who don't understand what other people write and insist in the same error.
What is in the stake is not how many moulds, but how flexible should be done packaging and how to allow people to mix crews and guns, including the possibility of using guns available from other brands without being forced to buy from HaT. And the opposite is also valid as people may be replacing crews of guns from ohter brands with HaT releases.
This is not an easy market and HaT needs to have profits or will be out of business. This is why I consider that a more prudent approach is the path to follow.
When you say that people don't like, is more some people or you don't like. Don't assume that all modellers think the same. Its your biggest mistake assuming that other people either agree with you or are wrong.
Besisdes, anonimous posts are to be avoided...
Nuno, am I correct in assuming english is not your first language? I am having difficulty in understanding some of what you posted. But, the dialoge between 2 or more people with differing view points seems to me to be the purpose of the blog. Anonymous posts seem to bother you a bit too much. I agree with parts of what you both say and can see the reasoning behind each opinion.
This is why Hat is having such a time picking which way to proceed. It is not a cut and dried decision to make. The more opinions they hear the more ideas they are liable to get.
"It is amazing to see what can be accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit."
Sscott
It would be helpful if Anonymous users signed with a name or handle. This way, we would be able to keep track of who is saying what in an on-going dialogue.
I think even just a 4 man crew with a gun would work well and should help keep the cost.
If you want more crew men then convert from the 4.
And folks it does not matter if you are a Wargamer or Collector or just someone who likes to set up Dioramas.
We are all hobbyiest and enjoy hat's product.
ROB C
Actually it does seem to matter what kind of hobbyist you are ,as to what you do with the product. As one of the previous posts mentioned a Wargamers needs are diferent from the toy soldier collector, etc.
To make money in this industry, for maximum return on your monetary outlay, you need to cater for the majority buyer and have your product in as many locations as possible, I'm thinking hobby shops here, like MODELZONE, I think it is called ,in the UK, where any hobbyists can walk in and buy what they need in one location.
If Artillery sets were seperated into a box of crew and a box with gun, then I can see logistical problems for the shop in trying to make sure they had enough guns in stock for the crews. Here is a scenario typical in a retail store -
The buyer sees a box on the shelf - 'Bavarian Artillery'(for example) and thinks WOW! I've never seen this before I'll buy it, on looking at the box he notices that the set doesn't include the gun only the crew, so an enquiry is made to the sales assistant as to where the gun is - We're out of stock of the gun it will be another month before we can get a re-stock.
O.k. I'll leave it just now and come back in a month to get both sets together.
Conclusion lost sale ,as the buyer will not return in a months time having lost interest or can't make it.
If everything is in one box then a sale is made, no need for the customer to try to come back. Conclusion this time happy customer and happy retailer.
I think some kind of compromise could be made on the Gun model, I am not an expert on Napoleonics but looing at illustrations in the Osprey books, it seems that the Austrian and Russian guns have a similar look, a long double trail carraige (longer than the French model). Would a single model with two barrels ,which would give a different 'look', work for everyone. This gun could be used in several sets.
I like the idea of having 6 man crew as I always think that the 4 man crew doesn't look right and I think I read somewhere that a gun crew is more like 8 - 10 men. Maybe a couple of the crew could have plug-in arms holding different items of equipment.
Anyway just my 2 cents worth.
Dave M
A six man crew would be better, obviously, than 4, so happy to support that vote :-)
So, Mr H, where are your thoughts taking you at the moment - on guns and cavalry horses?
@Marc, we have a ways to go before making any decision on this.
of course - i was just wondering if your preferences had been met by the (unruly) crowd here and elsewhere - are we near a consensus?
And do you have a timeline in mind at this stage, or is it a long time away?
@Marc, we need to think about it. Based on the replies above, is there a concensus? What would you do?
Hi
we all would welcome some artillery - any Napoleonic types but with a gun preferably
9th
This blog has made me lose interest im switching to another scale.
Rob C
... And we have our first casualty.
Always a shame, but my heart tells me that, if you make 'em, then they will come :-) Rob C - don't give up too early mate - the point of this blog is to try and show what is of interest, and then to help HaT decide how to run their business.
But no, I do not know what you need to do, but as this is clearly both a business and a labour of love, I was curious where you think, currently, the direction lies.
Hi Marc,
I would not say to early as i have been painting & building up my 54mm Napoleonic armys for the last 8 years.
I have messed around with other scales in the past as i almost gave up on 54 Naps..
but then hat came to the rescue with there french sets and that did get me reved up :).
but my only concern is if hat has cold feet about doing Cav/arty sets...now i can wait but for how long?
I was looking at the zvezda 1/72 cav sets and they just make me drool. {sorry i know its a hat Blog}
I hope hat does continue with this line i realy do and i cant wait to se what the Cav/Arty sets will look like.
but in the meamtime its very tempting to switch to the dark side.
Rob C
I can see where Rob C is coming from, this problem is a constant in the 1/32 scale for some unknown reason.
Personally I see no reason not to make all the 1/72 scale stuff in the bigger scale, not all at once of course.Making a sprue of 24 small figures costs as much as making a sprue for 6 larger figures, which I think HAT has proved works for them. Since they make two boxes of figures for each regiment/type utilising two molds then I don't see the problem with making a Gun and Crew or a Cavalry with Horses which also utilise two molds. If Command Sets make a return for money, then Artillery and Cavalry would as well.
Someone commented earlier about Wargames Shows in the UK seeing a rise in 54mm wargames and interestingly they get more youngsters taking part if it is a participation game than the now traditional 28mm versions.So the interst is there for the New collector, wargamer or hobbyist ,however the drawback is where can they buy the sets, does anyone sell them at shows ? My local wargame store only stocks the 28mm size of HAT but stocks the VICTRIX 54mm(well actually 65mm)and does well with them.
Dave M
Well Dave - I have suggested in the past to HaT that they could rent a stand and sell their wares at a UK (or US) wargames show. I know Colin runs Armourfast games and gives out boxes of tanks to the kids taking part, so there is definitely scope there. How about it H - fancy a visit to your former masters?
Hi Marc,
I haven't been to a wargame show in years, although I know from talking to others that there is a growing interest in games using a set of rules called 'Sharp Practice' and it looks like some are going to 54mm because you can apparently have a fun game with not a lot of figures. I am surprised to hear that no-pne sells HAT figures at the shows, or gave I picked you up wrong, can you buy HAT 1/72 at shows ?
I have been monitoring the New 28mm plastic figure ranges and the reaction they are getting, and see an opening for a re-packaged figure set of a 'Unit in a Box'. Something on the lines of 3 sets of Infantry (9 sprues) and 1 sprue of Infantry Command, 10 sprues in total. Or even a 'Wargame in a box' with maybe French and Prussians, equal amounts of each, and a basic set of rules and a couple of dice and a measuring stick, like AKTM do but in plastic. What do you think?
I added my 2 cents worth on cavalry in the Napoleonic Cavalry thread.
Dave M
I feel quite happy with wargamers setting up large armies, meaning that they are spending a lot of money, and HÄT is earning a lot of money, and can produce more small men to all of us.
Artillery will be good, but the quality of the gun must be top. A crude thing in this scale, and you can still sell to some, but not to painting people like myself.
Price is perhaps too much a problem here. I recently bought a Tamiya Spifire 1/32 for about a 100£. Got a mail from Hannants today that they have en route for me six conversion sets from Barracuda. Before I begin (if ever) to get this thing together, it will perhaps be 200£ The Airfix Mosquito sold out (first round) in a very short time. 1/24, and expensive, but people pay for it if they want it.
So for me, quality before quantity, and if the price will be high on certain sets, well I suppose that it is OK in order to get the quality. Bad quality is a waste of time, and mediocre figures/horses/guns not much better.
Then I can save my little money and by some figures in metal. Have you ever had a look at, e.g., Pegaso's outputs?
By the way, Italeri priced their 54 mm according to the subject and not according to a rule about a fixed price.
Lemche
@Rob C and others, this waiting goes both ways. Show that there is some interest by buying what we've made so far.
No company is going to "complete" a line if the early sets aren't sold. Look at all the companies who have started a series and didn't complete them. The #1 reason is that the first of the series didn't sell and the company stopped it.
Hatblogger,
I think I can help with an explanation why some series fail.
When starting a new range the manufacturers forget to make the enemy/opponent set within a reasonable time frame.
Example #1 - AIP Teddy Roosevelt and his roughriders set produced in 2000, still waiting for the Spanish to fight them 10 years!!!! later.
Example #2 - VICTRIX 1/32 scale British Light Infantry , they aren't they are 65mm tall so match NOTHING on the market except 1/30 scale metal figures, so guys are waiting to see if the French will be made before they buy.
Example #3 - Yourselves , I'll need to check but about 10 sets(or more) of French and their Allies BEFORE the enemy arrived in the form of the Prussians.
You can't rely on 'the other guy' to make the other side of the conflict, because I bet his stuff won't be compatible with yours.
This is not a slight on your company and certainly not a personal attack on yourself, but in general terms the current and past manufacturers don't understand the market. In the main they do not do any surveys and if they do they make what they want in the end.
I think this Blog might help in that regard.
Personally speaking I only buy what I want for my collection, I don't buy to simply support a company. You have to make something I want. For example I'm waiting for you to make British Light Infantry in action before I get any of your action french sets, I don't buy marching guys made by anyone. No-one currently makes decent useable Napoleonic British Infantry.
Dave M
@Dave M, that's one good explanation, but there are others.
No man is an island, and no company is an island either. When we came out, we came out expressly with the mission of making opponents or allies of the "the other guys". Except for a few ranges, no single company so far on this Earth has made all the protagonists and antagonists for WWII for example, or Napoleonics. We could have started making both sides in 1995 for Napoleonics and would still be making them now because that range is so vast.
I would hazard a guess that not enough AIP Teddy Roosevelt and the Roughriders were sold for AIP to consider making the enemies.
You're right that this blog will help because if you don't speak your mind, we won't know what you're thinking either. No one is asking anyone to support us or any other company. I'm just saying that if company X doesn't see enough sales of set 1 of range Y, nothing in the world is going to make them make set 2.
Hatblogger,
I have no problem with people speaking their mind. I agree all over the web on most of these Forums/blogs collectors fawn over manufacturers, to a sickening degree in some cases.
So you will not mind if I disagree with your original mission to make figures that compliment 'the other guys' ranges, unless of course you are talking about 1/72 scale, in which case this strategy may work. However in 1/32 scale it does not work, it didn't in the 1960's and it doesn't now, for the simple reason of scale/size.It may work if you duplicate the size and style of another company but this hasn't happened yet to my knowledge.
Wether you are a collector/wargamer/etc compatability is an issue and companies will and do lose sales over this issue because they are trying to make a product compatible with company X products, but what they forget is that long time collectors don't have anything by company X ,because their figures are not within the size range which was made years ago, so consequently they don't buy anything that fits with company X stuff. So a revenue stream is lost because of a perceived interest in a NEW product selling well because of hype.
If you need examples just ask.
I bought your original 1/32 scale figure sets when they first came out and was not impressed, you have come on in leaps and bounds since then of course, but you kind of gave up on it for awhile. Which I'm sure didn't help your sales.
The French Dragoons figures got 'trashed' immediately and the horses pressed into service for someone elses figures.
The Avant Garde became conversion 'fodder' and the two sets of ACW Zouaves are still around with new heads ,these were the best of the four 'Horse and Musket' sets.
No idea about your ancients as I don't collect them and don't know anyone who does.
Of the NEW companies 'Paragon Scenics' have got it right by bringing out US cavalry and Apaches at the same time. Second set of Apaches already out and second set of US Cavalry on the way with Mounted versions next year.
The other problem is making 'character' figures instead of 'average soldiers', you have got this right with your current Napoloeonics, so collectors will buy more than one box to create marching columns and firing lines. TSSD and Cunninghan Collectibles on the other hand, although nice sculpted figures, are characters that make it difficult to make up units to display because they are all
'individuals'. The standing firing TSSD Confederate for example has a bandaged foot, so if you bought a few sets to make up a firing line they would all have a wounded foot. Not very realistic is it ?
I don't buy 60mm figures so TSSD, Cunningham, Paragon and Conte don't get my money. Neither do ACTA and Italeri (for some sets) as they are too small at 52mm. Haven't had an opportunity to have any of your New figures in my hand to do a compatibilty survey with other types but I'm told they are 54mm, so once you produce something I need I'll buy them.
I ,like many collectors, have a long list of figure sets that I would like and you will be surprised to find that a lot of them will be sets that have been produced ,badly or in the wrong scale, by someone already.
Dave M
Now that's a post.
Sscott
Sscott,
Sorry it was a bit long, got carried away .
Will try to be more brief with future posts.
Dave M
Dave, you misunderstand. It was a very thorough and insightful post. I was glad to read it as it echos my thoughts rather closely. Saved me the time of having to write all that. Seems you have spent a long time giving this some serious noodling. Keep up the good work.
Sscott
Sscott,
Thanks for that, I do have a slight problem with the internet with posts, as a lot can be read in different ways depending on your mood when reading them.
Yes ,I have spent years researching this subject and trying to understand why manufacturers get it wrong more often than right. Most use 'molding processes don't allow you to do that' when making an excuse for poor design. I accept that two part molds do have limitations but find that most realistic poses can be done. With the growth in manufacturers using plug-in parts then many good poses can be achieved ,however they don't take advantage of the flexibility this allows by not making a extra piece that could be used to change the pose. Admittedly TSSD have tried this with plug-in hands. HAT have been doing great with the improvements that they are incorporating in each subsequent set, example the first French Command sets had fixed arms on the Officers, so buying a set means that all three officers were the same unless you converted them (which not everyone is capable of doing or wants to), now the officers have a plug-on arm with extra arms in the set, so you can change the same body in the set to look different, giving more variety to the set and pleasing the customer wether they convert or not, everyone likes more poses.
I think Cavalry would be 'AWESOME' if they had plug-in heads and arms (right one at least) then the possibility for customising them without having to be a serious modeller or converter would increase sales. Just imagine a column of Cavalry with every single guy different, heads turned slightly or arms put on at different angles, and all you have had to do is buy several of the same set. The ONLY thing that would have to done properly are pre-drilled hole in the neck and good firm join for the arm.
I didn't know much about the HAT 1/72 scale product range but I had a good look at it on the plastic figure review website. If HAT put the same innovation into the 1/32 scale range and expanded into other time periods, I think they could be the market leader in no time.
I had some more thougts on Cavalry but I'll put them on the other thread shortly.
Is there much similarity in Napoleonic Artillery uniforms ? Could the same bodies be used just with different heads ?
Dave M
completely agree with the post above. hat can become the leader in 1 / 32.
I see it from my purchases of new figures.
Hi Guys,
Got a couple of hours to kill this afternoon, so thought I'd post some thoughts on how to do the artillery.
Looked at the various new sets done by HaT in 1/72 scale after Marc's comment on the other thread. I realise everything is bigger in 1/32 so the molds would be considerably more expensive however I think this would work, using smaller molds.
Mold # 1 - The Wheels.
2 X Cannon Wheels, 2 X smaller limber wheels. Both these items can be used over and over again for future sets. If HaT get round to doing limbers and wagons.
Mold # 2 - The Gun.
1 X right side carraige, 1 X Left Side carraige, 1 X Axle, 1 X Block for elevating gun, 1 X end piece for hooking onto limber.
2 X Barrels of differing sizes.
This would give detail on the outsides of the gun carraige and when you look down on it. The Dolphins for the barrels could be slotted into the mold somewhere.
Mold #3 - The crew.
6 X Bodies with attached left arm,no head or right arm. As with Cavalry suggestion hole in neck pre-drilled and plug out on right shoulder.
The left arm would be positioned in a way to accept the piece of equipment held in the right arm. Officer or Sergeant and 5 crew.
6 X Right arms holding a piece of operating equipment - Ramrod,end spike, charge, etc.
The arns could be swapped between bodies to create differences in pose so that if you bought two or more sets the crew don't have to look the same.
More on this in a minute.
6 X Heads with Headgear for the set.
Now the extra use for these figures. I was checking through the Osprey book on the Austrian Specialists and noted that the uniform of an artillery gunner is very similar to that of a Sapper/Miner with only the Headgear and equipment carried being different. So a second set of heads with 'Corsehat' and arms holding shovels, picks, etc. would fit into the hands on the bodies of the crew to create something different. I believe that most artillery uniforms by the main nations have a similarity to ther branches, example French Old Guard Foot Artillery with Carabiner heads make Engineers. I would have to work out the positions of the figures and what can be put into a mould but I think the priniple would work.
The other advantage to this is, if the crew were to be sold seperately then they could be used for something that didn't require the gun.
Also noticed in the H&C books that Austrian Volunteers used similar uniforms, so with muskets instead of shovels they make more fighting troops. Similar conversion can be worked with Russian Artillery and Jagers.
Some compromise with detail but another use which could help sales.
Comments please.
Dave M
Dave (sorry, seems to be mostly us two at present) - what is your view of the Italeri and AiP gun carriages, which are moulded one piece, top down? I thought the Italeri was better of two, and quite acceptable.
The gun barrel was better too, with the separate endpiece, although the two piece howizter barrel seemed overkill to me. I must admit, I am happy to drill the end of a barrel.
Crew - you are right, a lot of the uniforms would stay the same, such that careful choice would get maximum returns (ie early French foot can do Guard foot, or engineers, or troops etc).
The idea of separate arms and tools is definitely a useful way to go, to avoid repetition - for some reason, a unit marching with same pose looks less "unreal" than 4 guns next to each other with all five crew performing synchronised drill.
I would suggest HaT send their chosen artillery sculptor to the old Osprey book - "Artillery equipment of the Napoleonic Wars" (By the recently deceased Terry Wise) - as it has some truly excellent examples of realistic artillery poses.
Marc,
Starting again here, I had a post all typed out and hit the wrong button and had to start again.
I have just checked the two models by Italeri and AIP, very similar in size and both have good and bad points. I would be happier with fewer pieces so the AIP one with the dolphins from the Italeri one would be fine with me.
You mentioned the barrels of the Italeri guns being drilled out, but actually the AIP ones are too.
Interestingly, if you take the wheels out of the mold then the carraige and barrels with a few extras, ammunition box, etc, would fit into a postcard sizes area, so quite a small mold, I think it would even take the longer Russian gun carraige.
My thinking on the seperate wheel mold is to use the cannon wheels for all models and later they could be utilised to make the Artillery Limbers and wagons. the french 'gribeval' system is ideal for modellers. So more use out of this mold and stock pile of stuff for the next project. I was looking at the similar parts used by HaT to make the Ambulance,field forge,etc made in 1/72.
I agree the Osprey book you mentioned is ideal for working out what all the crew could be doing.
I don't mind it only being the two of us talking as long as someone is and I'm not talking to myself :)
Dave M
I'm here :-)
Had an additional thought on the Artillery Crews and how they can be offered seperately to satisfy all.
Instead of having a plug-in right arm, decide on the poses to be used and make sure it works if the man is holding either a musket or a piece of artillery equipment and construct them in the same manner as the Prussian Infantryman advancing at port, that figure could easily have arms holding a ramrod for example and the man walking at trail could be carrying a bucket, etc.
So basically the figures could be offered as a seperate set as they could be constructed as Artillerymen or Infantrymen. This means that collectors that have extra guns have the crews they need and those that don't have more infantry poses. Best of both world.
The drawback is that you might only get 4 figures on a sprue because of the space required for the extra arms but with three sprues in a set ,that's 12 men.
Additionally the Infantrymen could represent something that you would not use in a formation like, Jagers or Light Infantry depending on what uniforms are the same as the artillery.
Any thoughts on this anyone?
Dave M
Dave - my concern would be if the artillymen had the same kit as infantry. For example, the Prussians have the slung blanket/coat over the shoulder. Would the gun crew have retained this in action? It would seem an encumbrance to me, but not an expert.
Marc,
Not an expert on Artillery uniforms either, but looking through the H&C books, the uniforms are the same as some infantry and the book illustrates many of Jagers or similar without back packs. So this may be a practical way to go.
If they can be made into jagers/riflemen or light infantry ,what ever you want to call them, as they are skirmishing types, the poses would not be a problem.
Just have to work out what the artillerymen have to do to work out what is needed to arm them with muskets.
Looking at the Osprey book on Artillery that you mentioned it appears that the Prussians , at least have the ammo pouch for a musket and the Russians and Austrians have the double straps but an artillery pouch or item of equipment where the ammo pouch would be. Is it a probelm for anyone if the Artillerymen had ammo pouches?
Dave M
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