@newjohnbea, the queue for 1/32 scale is pretty short. We have 4-6 sets that are finished and ready to be released. That's all the test shots you've seen. We'll do that 2 or 4 sets at a time.
Then we've got the Austrians left to do, a few other command sets. Then we can do this.
Meanwhile, we still need to come to a consensus about how to do cavalry sets. We talked about that on an internal blog, but need to bring that into the open so that more people can discuss it.
The problem with cavalry sets is that they are expensive. Because of the size of the figures, two separate molds are needed. A mold for the riders and a mold for the horses. Two molds = double the cost. Are you willing to pay double the cost for the same number of figures? The best way to "amortize" the cost of the horse mold is to use them for several sets.
Two things we won't do is:
a) Use the same set of horses for all the cavalry sets.
b) Use the same horses with separate saddles.
For example, I'm pretty sure we can make a set of light cavalry/hussars which share the same horse furniture. The problem is that all hussars look pretty much alike (especially if you give them the same horses), and we're going to try very hard not to make something that already has been made.
One good thing is that a lot of horse furniture and saddlery looked alike. I mean, one horse tooth's shabraque looks pretty much like another one. So I'm thinking that we come up with a solution of matching riders to horses. The one obstacle we always consider is, how much cavalry are we going to sell? I can understand selling a battalion of men to people who want to build up a foot regiment, but how many cavalry will people buy? Space is one consideration, they just take up too much space. For me, I'd buy 1 box, that's way enough for me, and that's a deal killer.
29 comments:
Mr H.
1/32 cavalry is a problematic project.
So far, the only viable solution I have seen out of other manufactures is the universal mount. Either the way A-in-P have done by sculpting the saddles w. the riders, or Britain's horses w. interchangeable saddlery. You nix those solutions, you are left with a considerable mountain to move.
Traditionally, in 54mm scale six horsemen can represent units as large as 600 sabers. So you have a valid concern about the potential sales of such figures. Most of the collectors are pressed for space, the small few who have the space to fill tables with full scale units of 54mm cavalry have the resources to buy metal figures.
I'm not convinced that the HaT business model, such as it is today, can support the expense of 1/32 Napoleonic cavalry. The safest venture at this stage may be mounted command sets, that would make a natural addition to the infantry. But the cost is still pushing the envelope.
One way around the cost would be to cut the number of figures. Some subjects may take to it better than others, you only need one or two poses for Cuirassiers in reserve. Hussars at the charge, on the other hand, require a more diverse range of poses. (That said, the later has been made, and the former is not available in plastic). I'd guess that four is the minimum number of mounted figures you can offer per box, maybe three... but I'm doubtful.
Three enlisted and one officer makes a decent cavalry unit in this scale. If you could offer 4 mounted figures per box at roughly the same price, you might have something. Naturally, the higher the retail price per figure is the harder it will be to sell them.
First, I must say that I like horses for several reasons, (I still ride, was a cavalry officer, etc) so may not be objective.
I understand the cost problem, and making large parts, even using two part hollow-belly horses may be expensive, but still consider cavalry as a good bet.
The main problem, to me, is how to manage the shabrasque/saddle issue, and understand that my suggestion of a separeted furniture isn't welcome, but we can try a different approach.
If the riders and horses can be purchased apart, customers may buy either the available HaT horses or from other brands. HaT could just release a couple set of horses, compatible with more common riders, and sell this in packs with riders+horses, and let the customers decide what horses to buy when less suitable horses are available for the riders.
If I had riders I want available, even without horses, certainly would source horses somewhere else and get my own cavalry force :-)
Ok, let's start with how many. I want to make a Lasalle based game in 54mm. For that, i need 12 cavalry to a unit, and for an average cavalry brigade I will need 4 units. At least two brigades a side, so i will be looking for almost 200 cavalry. italeri are 8 to a box, but hard to find, and repeat trumpeters, so i will be buying 4 boxes of dragoons to make two units (lots of spare horses that way).
this is for a garden game - so space is not the issue - getting quality cavalry is.
Then - I am totally in for multiple use of horses - French you could do two types that cover most (ie the cuirassier and the chasseur). if you did a plain cloth with pointed and then round ends, then I reckon I could cover most European cavalry options.
So, two horse poses, in four different sets. Count me in.
But, have you seen the perry style plastic 28mm horse - two halves, that can be mixed and matched. So with two poses, you could mix up and get 4 varieties. If you have not seen a set, try a box.
Ok, final plea. Could you try and make them compatible size wise with at least one of your "competitors". My money would be the early Italeri.
I did buy at least 6 sets of the Hät French dragoons, and dit use the horses for all other types of figures, and several periods....
A way to cut the expenses is to return to the Ancient Roman and Gaul cavalry sets. 4 figures in 1 box, and the same prices as for 16/18 infantry.
@Nuno,
Of course you are a horse-soldier, Bravo! I saw your brothers-in-arms when I was in Lisboa at the turn of the century; perhaps men under your command? Very impressive.
My only true regret about being born an American is that our cavalry was fully mechanized by the time I came of age. I love horses and during the Romanic phase of my youth I dreamt of being in the cavalry. One old man in my mother's family was a retired U.S. Cavalry officer, and I would have happily followed in his path. Sadly, by my time horses had been replaced by tanks, and I don't love automobiles the way I love horses. (The anti-military sentiments of the post Vietnam era didn't encourage me either, to be honest).
You are very lucky to be from a country that still has a mounted cavalry, very few men in our time have the chance to really be a cavalry officer.
@Mannix
Currently, cavalry is full mechanized, however all personal learn to ride horses to keep the tradition alive.
The last operations where riders took part are from the 70ies, in Africa, where several dragoons squadrons where deployed as a fighting force.
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5619/dragoesangola01.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5687/dragoesangola02.jpg
Weapons are the G3 automatic rifle for foot combat and the Walther P38 for firing while mounted. Some still carried swords, but just for tradition, as never knew of any using it in battle.
The biggest gap in the 54mm Napoleonic cavalry range, at least for the French, is the lack of any 54mm Heavy Cav on the market (ACTA is 1/35 which does not work for 54mm, as these where big guys on big horses). It is possible to use the existing HAT horses from the dragoon set and this may keep costs down. With an extra head set you can market the figures as both Cuirassier and Carbinier.
There is some light cav out there (Italeri), but regular line cavalry- Chasseur a cheval - as well as lancers, were only made by Timpo and are no longer in production.
@Nuno,
Of course, today, all cavalry are fully mechanized for combat operations. However, European armies still retain the tradition of mounted training, as with the British Household Cavalry or your own dragoons. I think this adds to the "esprit de corps" and helps with recruiting.
In the US only a few small units of the National Guard (our version of militia) train as cavalry, but only for parade duty. Our cavalry were never much more than Mounted Infantry, by European standards, so the tradition was never very well established. There is a story that the U.S. Cavalry killed all of its horses for meat after WWI. I don't know if that is true, but it does illustrate the practical mindset of our generals.
I've always asked: If the battlefield ain't safe for horses, why in Hell are we sending men out there?
@Mannix
I've said "now" because we had mounted cavalry in battle in the 70ies and ready to action in the 80ies, when horses become finally replaced with vehicles. It was not so long ago and many people here still remember or even serve with the last operational dragoon squadrons. A few officers in active duty have fought on horseback, so, to us isn't as far as in most countries.
I guess what you saw here are cavalry from the National Republican Guard, a military force who also perform police duties and was present in Iraq for a few years:
http://i.olhares.com/data/big/168/1681537.jpg
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/341/iraque698287609833728.jpg
Cheers
I'm in favour of 2 part horses, with hollow bellys, with the head in one part and the tail in the other to keep size smaller. It they are interchangeable, better, but this need to be very well done, otherwise they may look weird.
Blankets and other accessories are to be moulded with the horses or apart?
Getting back to the question..
about numbers..I would paint up
20 Scots Greys but only if they have bearskins
60 Cuirassiers
20 Carabiniers
Stan
Hi - the possible answer with horses is either:
a) - just make the troopers and utilize other manufacturers horses etc... . I often utilize Britains Deetail horses and get the saddles/shabraques/valises from Helmet Soldiers spare parts lists
b) - not sure about this one but could hat buy the out of issue Italeri horse moulds for French Dragoons abd Scots Greys. When Italeri withdraw sets they dont often re-issue them -(am I wrong or correct??
c) hat could approach Eric Kemp at Helmet Soldiers and possibly make arrangements to use his horse saddles (helmet soldier have a massive range of proper 54mm soldier spares)
Maybe not the best solutions but maybe food for thought to try to get an answer
We all want to see hat 54mm proper sized horses for the Napoleonics.
Regrds
9th
Are their any plans for artillery? I consider this to be a big gap in the Napoleonics for 1/32 scale. I think HAT should keep developing product in this era.
My suggestion is just to test the water first with something you know will sell well like a set of french Cuirassiers done RIGHT and see how they sell and how they go over and then you,ll have a better idea of where to go from there???
I,d rather see Hat not even do cavalry then do it half assed like the rest of the 1/32 scale cavalry that,s out there right now!
The only cavalry out there right now that are any good are the Italeri sets. The rest are pretty much a joke for the most part. I,m not a war gamer and not all guys collecting this stuff are into war games. Some people just like to collect and paint up GOOD Quality figures and this is very lacking in 1/32 scale cavalry.
I,d bet the,d sell well even if the price had to be a bit higher.
Some of the horses could be used for various sets if marking for king and country were removed from the saddles if this could off set the price and if the figures were made with plug in arms you could get more poses out of the figures and be able to add buglers and flag bearers to the sets also with out having to have a ton of extra buglers like the Italeri sets.
I really hope Hat takes the dive into cavalry at least to give it a test at least. I,d love to see some Russian and Prussian cavalry finally done right!!!
FISH!!!
To add to my last post about French Cuirassiers, if these were to be done it would also be a good idea(time)to think about doing some British and German allies in the Square formation(knelling and standing to repel poses)done like the marching box sets with like 3 different poses standing and 3 different poses kneeling to give a good looking Square that dosn,t look like the attack of the clones.
Some highlanders would be nice, maybe some Dutch/Belgian troops??? Lots of options but something good for the french heavies to smash into!
FISH!!!!
@All, many thanks for the ideas! The most useable idea (from helmet2008) is to just make the troopers. That is do-able. Customers can either utilize horses from other manufacturers, or to wait for horses. But it certainly will get rid of a lot of headaches to package and sell the troopers and horses separate.
@Hatcollector, I'll start a new post on artillery.
Still one more idea :
make the cavalry for 7YW and Napoleonic periode togetherwith different hats Heads.
A hussar can have the shako but also the merliton. The latter makes him usefull for the 7YW untill far into the napoleonic wars, and hasn't been made.
Dragoons/currassiers from the 7YW with tricorn, and heads with the helmets of the napoleonic period...
This would cover the infantry of two production lines you're running now. There will come also demand for 7YW cavalry surely if you will continue with figures from this conflict.
Hi - just a final note on the cavalry - this afternoon I actually used some horses from the earlier hat set of Punic Wars cavalry - they are bigger than the original hat French Dragoon horses -
I had to trim off some of the unnecessary straps around the hind quarters and after a rub down with sand paper to smooth off they are fine for Napoleonics. I just added a sheepskin saddle and square valise fron Helmet spares and I now have great mounts ready to accept French Cuirassiers.
My point is that after years of not having decent cavalry ready to just paint up I have had to develope conversion/utilization skills.
However, if hat made proper cavalry with horses I could make many more figures a lot sooner and a bit easier
Regards
9th
Not everyone wants to go out and buy helmet parts?
Maybe just make one horse pose but 4 in the box with 4 riders.
Rob C
Hi
ok when the adapted hat cavalry are completed I will post photos to hat to see what you all think
Regards
9th
Not sure I am all that captured by the idea of cavalry produced without horses. I'd like to be confident about the availability of appropriate horses. I have, over time, re-horsed, so to speak, various Reamsa, Dulcop, and Timpo figures and have found this occasionally challenging and also time consuming. As far as I am aware riderless horses are available in sets from Classic toy Soldiers and Helmet (old Britains ?) individually. I am sure there are others. Obviously other horses are available (Old Detail, Timpo etc and more recent Italeri and other hat horses) that can be used but come at the expense of an unused rider which doesn't seem that economical to me.
Additionally I have concerns about scale. We already see comment about the slighter ACTA British and French cavalry. A worse look for me would be a tiny rider having a horse that looked like it was a draft horse under him or, conversely, a rider looking like he was mounted on a pony. I would want to be very confident that I could access sufficient, suitable horse before investing in too many cavalry.
I would expect to pick up large numbers of say Austrian, Russian and other cavalry and cost would start to be an issue here - effectively 2pound each for Helmet horses with horse furniture starts to add up over many figures and would I expect be more expensive for the consumer than paying a bit extra in the first place.
FWIW I'd happily accept the additional cost of having a horse and rider in one set, and perhaps less content per box, to ensure that each figure had a compatible rider. I'd also suggest that the one off purchaser, or even a younger buyer, may be put off by having sets of riders without horses.
I see perhaps three of four key different horses and horse furniture as being able to reasonably address most cavalry types for the period.
Just a view.
Thanks
Neil A
Three x Six poses in a set is a definite benefit to the buyer.
Are the SYW Prussian cavalry masters shown in May 2009 still around? There were Hussars, Dragoons and Cuirassiers. I recall that Mrs. Jones got in a debate with one poster over hat feathers.
Hi - the comments are quite correct and I too would like to see hat make the horses at the same time as the troopers , but I would also have troopers without the horses if the alternative was nothing at all.
These hat 1/32nd figures are excellent as we all know and I would compromise with other makers horses if hat make the mounted soldiers only. We are still in the middle of a recession and its a big decision to take investing in expensive tooling costs which have rocketed in the last 2 years.
As in all things in life sometimes we have to compromise.
Best situation - troopers with horses
Worst situation - no cavalry at all
Compromise - troopers without horses and find other makes to marry up
If hat could make horses at a later date then fine
Just my opinion
Regards
9th
The problem is it makes no buisness sence at all to have just riders in a box..
Maybe some kid walks into a hobby shop comes across a box of hat Cav takes them home only to find there are no horses,
Now there might be a few harcore collectors outthere that will not mind spending $24 for a box of italeri just to pluck out the horses.
or spend $$ on helmet or whatever.
hat are doing a great job with the infantry sets.
So lets hope the Arty & Cav sets are just as good.
Rob,
thank you for the answers to hat for the next release
Rob's got a good point. The last survey on "Day at the Forum" noted that the average age of the people who responded was topping 45ish. If Hat wants to have a continuing and growing purchasing base they will have to appeal to beginers. Keep the sets simple.
What we have here is a great drought in 1/32 for quality figures. There are so many in 1/72 that the variety is vast and the choice of figures is huge. With a 1/32 line just being developed we need to have patience and let each set be made independantly, correctly and as the specific type it is. Other sets can come out later to be other units.
Just think what a disapointment it would have been if the light infantry had been only one box with marching, command, and action in one box and only two of each type.
For cavalry, make one box of troopers and later come up with a command set. Four guys in a box with horses. Have them with heads attached as no beginer will want headless figures. That kid Rob refers to will be just as diapointed and confused if the heads are not attached. Not every one is an expert in Napoleonic uniform regulations. Hat needs to appeal to an ever expanding base of customers not a more nitche group.
Sscott
Its important to target a specific market and when planning more complex or expensive sets HaT will be aiming to the collector. This group is far more demanding than the average customer and isn't representative of the market who still buy repeatedly sets from some of the most popular countries. I understand that sets not yet available are more apelative to most of us, but sometimes something duplicating other already existing may represent a better investment. Personally, I would go for a British or French set, choosing among the most common cavalry present in the battlefiels.
This is a business and either HaT have a profit from each product line, or sooner or later will shut it down, so I foresee a slow start, without a huge investment, but keeping current standards. The modular approach, with riders, compatible with at least another brand, and horses apart, even if released later, seems prudent and can test the market without risking too much.
I got a few AIP figures and don't like them for several reasons. Those I got are too thin and using the same mould to represent different units means that are very far from accurate. The same happen when the same carriage is being used to guns and machine guns or to some different barrels. They are not what many modellers want, but may be what some require. To me AIP are a little more than toys and much bellow HaT, Italeri or ACTA standards and would not use them to make a diorama, but guess they aim for a different market.
Larger scales as 1/32 are much less generic and cost much more than smaller scales and I really don't know what is HaT's idea and strategie for this scale, what markets are aiming to or what investments and risks is willing to take.
I would pay more for Cavarly, with or without horses.
Vince
Woah - men without horses. Please tell me this is a non starter! I know the arguments, but frankly that is going to be really hard to come to terms with. here in UK land the stock of Italeri cavalry is exhausted (I know, I just spent the weekend exhausting them, having to go to Switzerland for the final set to complete my units).
So if cost (as always) is the issue - go for the best possible usage. Your Prussian infantry need a cavalry unit. I can convert Italeri hussars so that they will pass at first glance, but we need some dragoons and/or landwehr cavalry.
Then, the French need a good set. The Imperial guard always seems to sell, so why not a set of lancers - which could then be pressed into service for Russian and Austria. Or Chasseurs, which with head swaps will serve as hussars for most nations.
So come on HaT, please don't go this route.
Oh, and to you collectors - how many will HaT sell to you. Us wargamers need units. I am looking for 12 cavalry to a unit, and my starter armies need 6 units a side, preferably ten. So please don't dismiss us. And at shows in teh UK, I am seeing more and more 54mm games - if the product is there, wargamers will use it - and buy big time.
I agree with any set of Napoleonic cavalry (4-6-8 horsemen),but as I said earlier,variety of units ,armies,will be important for me
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