With the post on artillery there was much ado about the need for accurate figures and accessories.
It came as a surprise to me there were reactions stating rather no figures than not 100% accurate.
Of course, there are very different groups of collectors : wargamers, diorama makers,...
Certainly as a 1/32 wargamer, options to have certain armies was, 10 years ago, very limited.
Conversions that look more or less as they should, using ACW guns for Napoleonic battles…
Anything that looks better than such conversions is a big improvement for me.
So an Austrian gun , painted green and use it as a Russian gun is no problem for me.
I think even most of the people wouldn’t even see it is actually an Austrian gun.
Of course, if I would have the opportunity to have a Russian gun, would choose that one.
Also, having a Russian army of 1812, would that be a crime to use them for the 1805 campaigns
I can imagine and understand that a diorama with to wrong guns would be unthinkable for some.
On the other hand : accuracy is relative : for instance : what looked the uniforms like after one month of campaigning, all the uniform changes …can one state that one particular uniform wasn’t used in that certain campaign…. About guns : guns were often trophies, but if caught in sufficient numbers and ammo, were used in their own batteries. So the wrong gun isn’t always historical incorrect.
So indeed, if nothing else is available, BMC guns can do the job for me. But for the different minded, if accuracy is that important, I know there are metal figure manufacturers that make fine accurate guns.
http://www.firstlegionltd.com/russianartillery.aspx
An other thing is Hät is making TOY soldiers. It is fantastic Hät makes such accurate figures in 1/32 while this hasn’t been the biggest priority for other manufactures.
Of course, all this is a personal view. What’s yours?
25 comments:
I agree that from a distance a gun is a gun ,it certainly dosent bother hollywood. However I would like some accuracy in my models and as for First legion , yes very nice but not everybody can afford upwards of £200,00 for a gun and crew . That amount will buy an awful lot of HAT guns when they appear . Ill wait .
Hat, I am sure will find, that its vast majority of customers is NOT after simple "TOYS". If it were, it would buy Mexicans from the ALamo and not bother with anything French or Prussian from Hat. For that matter Hat would not go so far as to be historically accurrate either. So your rediculous, dismissive attitude does not seem indicitive of Hat's interest in its customer base.
Hear, hear Martin!
brian023,
I agree with both camps but am of the general opinion that Napoleonic guns come in two types single and double post (trail).
Italeri and AIP have been producing double post cannons for some time, single post from AIP and Call to Arms (not to mention Timpo).
Whilst there are subtle differences between French, Austrian and Russian guns (and many other nations guns) with double post the main difference for the wargamer is the colour of the woodwork and for them the exact detail is of little import (I have been painting Italeri French guns in different colours for years). Single post guns are only really relevant to the British and Call to Arms and AIP do a perfectly acceptable gun and crew for them, I prefer the Call to Arms, you may disagree?
The modeller is a different fish altogether where detail is very important for gun and gunners.
The question HaT must ask themselves is which camp do you fall into?
I support Brian's post on this one. I am essentially a wargamer with toy soldiers of the napoleonic era: accuracy should be strived for but I appreciate that compromise is the art of good design (...patiently waiting for superior HaT French and British line infantry and French cuirassier cavalry...)
Alex
While I agree that accuracy is important, I think we also have to remember that our toys are expensive to produce, far more so than metal miniatures, and so sometimes compromise is necessary.
For example, my Italeri hussars are going to have to serve as Prussians - I will put HaT covered shako heads on them, but the breeches will stay as they are. Same for limber drivers - head swaps are the best I can do. But once painted, most people will not notice.
So let us not quarrel amongst ourselves too much, but remember that this is a minority hobby, and so if a product can be released that is slightly "generic", then that may well be the best we get.
For artillery (and horses/horse furniture), I am prepared to make detail sacrifices, in order to get something. I know we would all love artillery pieces for every nation and every calibre, but I think we must be realistic and accept this will never happen in plastic (metal, maybe). And so, if HaT can make a commercial success out of, say, making a Russian gun, but selling it with Prussian or Austrian crew, then so be it.
And as to "toys" - well, all I can say is that I think one will find children do still access this hobby, and so some generic sets will sell. Tricornes will cover most of the 18th century, shakos the 19th etc. let's not get unrealistic.
The Supreme Russian play set has a good copy of a Frontline cannon.
British and French AiP, CTA along with Italarti all have cannons I collect. Austrian is what is missing.I agree with Brian and Marc.
I appreciate HaTs accuracy and selection in Naps and Look forward to the same treatment in 7 year war.
HaTs ancient were good. Generally ancients are movie based figures and seem closer to 60mm. As are most of the newer figures produced (Conte, TSSD, Cunnyhams,Classic,Weston,AiP)
Replicants and Hat are still more the Airfix 1/32 scale.
So between right scale, Plastic type (I like hats and Aip best for conversions)Accuracy,Sculpt types,pose selection. Some one should be able to find something to moan about.Personnally I pretty well like them all.
Only now am I starting to be a bit fussy as there are a few choices out there now.
Brian023,
the Supreme Russian play set that Anth mentions are, interestingly, straight copies of the King and Country Range which is why they are so large compared with other figures.
I had considered buying some of these but the cost for a gun is prohibative as the figures are too large to use with any other makes.
Its that scale thing rearing its ugly head again.
As far as HaT making TOYS you are correct. I want TOY soldiers. Maybe I an in the minority but it is who I am. The other day some of the grandkids came over, ages 6 abd 8. I happened to have a large battle setup on the floor. It was the first time they had seen them. The first question was "What is this?" We spent quite a while on the floor moving the TOYS around and setting up cavalry charges Artillary batteries and infantry firing lines. There was not one remark about how the guns were not the correct style and it did not diminish the fun we had.
Sscot
Toys to some, models of a high calibre to others. We all "Toy-around" with them, however hat's recent crop of 1/32nd Napoleonics are a bit special compared to other makes and good value for money.
A good accurate paint job makes a fine model but maybe a basic paint job makes another toy soldier.
9th
I do not see why a toy should not be as accurate as possible. We are not kids, baby boomers like my self are close to their 30's or 40's. An Austrian gun painted like a Russian is still and above all an Austrian gun. BMC will not do for me, I want to have my armies as close to reality and accuracy as possible. An army on campaign is an army I would rather not do, cause I like uniforms as brand new as possible. We ask Hat to respect historical accuracy, I think a little research on the uniforms and right types of guns is the best thing to do for all.
Well Phoebus, your attitude may exp-lain why there are no more 54mm sets coming from HaT. It is UNECONOMICAL to try and make everything perfectly, and people do not buy "approximations" - so round and round we go.
Marc, I hope you didn't mean the Austrian and Spanish sets have shelved. I was so looking foward to them :(
Stephen Anderson
You could email H direct, but I understand that there are to be no more 54mm HaT sets as sales have not matched costs - the demand just does not appear to be there.
Interesting thread that shifts from a discussion on whether more accuracy is required to whether HAT will continue to produce 1/32 scale figures at all. This would be sad news indeed. Is it possible for HAT to confirm this suggestion?
Regards
Neil A
Dear HaT,
can this be true, no more 1/32 scale sets?
Please tell us this cannot be true, I will go out and buy more figures if it helps!
brian023
Well, buying more figures will always help :-)
I think H would like to see a lot more demand for the existing sets before he can commit more money to make fresh sets.
But I am not talking from a position of complete accuracy and knowledge here, so email direct to find out more.
Dear Mark,
I have already bought 4 boxes this week, 2 x Prussian LV and 2 x 7YW.
I will get ordering ASAP I need some more Prussian Inf and Comd.
Hat keep up the good work.
brian023
I think there's a fine line between toys and models. I also think if we get to the point where it is impossible to please the customer due to obsessive/compulsive desire for COMPLETE accuracy we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
As a boomer in my mid-50s I grew up with toy soldiers that were reasonably accurate. It was part of the learning experience for me as a kid, playing with my toy soldiers and learning about the wars in which they fought.
It bugs me to see the so-called "playsets" in Toys-R-Us and Walmart with names like "Anzio Beach" with Airfix or Matchbox knockoffs (or worse Airfix Paras with those weird semi-US M-1 steel pots) fighting other "US" troops with plastic jets and Timmee Knockoff US M-60 tanks in different colors, or worse, knock-off Timmee's in two colors with M-16s fighting each other.
Now, I've never figured out where the uniforms of the old Ft. Apache cavalrymen came from (before the 7th Cavalry sets) and I know the old Marx frontier cannon was designed more for the trigger mechanism than accuracy. And the gun on their WWII Panther... I'd hate to fire that bad boy. But it tried to look like a Panther.
Thankfully, we've come beyond that and the current makers of figures are, for the most part guys like us who grew up loving toy soldiers. As Rick Conte once told me over the phone when he first started out (and a call to order figures often ended up in a two hour bull session about toy soldiers and his ideas for new sets) he was wanting to make the sets he wanted as a kid, the way he wanted them made. I think he may even have put that on his website at one time.
Nick Versteeg and several others have voiced the same sentiment. And remember our dear friends here at HaT started out with the same goal - to fill the frustrating gaps left by other companies. Something they've gone above and beyond in doing.
I'm the kind of guy who likes to spot errors in historical movies, using a painted up M-60 as a German Tiger (almost ruins "Patton" for me) or ribbons out of place on a uniform (Come on guys, do your homework!), we won't even talk about glaring misrepresentations of events; but I like to give our friends who are making our toy soldiers the benefit of the doubt.
Because, if you meet these folks (and I've no doubt several of you have) at the various shows, you'll find they are just like us, guys who never let that one small part of the little boy who loved toy soldiers grow up. Yes, they're in business and trying to make a profit, but none of these guys are getting rich making toy soldiers. The days of the big toy manufacturer making toy soldiers like Louis Marx are gone. I don't know how big Airfix is now, nor Italeri or Zvezda, but most of the guys I know in the States making plastic toy soldiers are what we call "Mom and Pop" organizations. They're doing it on a shoestring. And it is, indeed a very expensive process.
I know, I've looked into the mechanics of making toy soldiers myself, more than once. The capital investment at the outset is staggering; I have nothing but respect for those who take such a profound risk with their own money out of a love for the hobby. It's something I've never been able to manage.
No, I usually won't buy the junk put out by the Hong Kong knockoff companies. And there are some sets I won't buy because either style of sculpting and poses or they are totally wrong. But if a company like HaT comes out with decent sets of artillerymen in ANY era with a decent representation of the guns I'm not going to count bolts on the carriage if I can paint it up and make it look good.
Yes, I'd love to have extremely accurate models of each gun in the inventories of all the armies of every period (I am an old real-life cannon cocker after all), but 1/32 scale molds and manufacturing is much MUCH more expensive than 1/72 scale. Remember, the perfect is often the enemy of the good.
I get worried about ordering anything until I see all of the verious arms represented. Airfix had a habit of never completing ranges, Napoleonics, wwi, AWI even ACW. I understand the economics of the situation, Hat being concerned about creating figures that just don't sell but by the same token I would like to see decent cavalry and Artillery as well as the superb infantry they have presented to us before I commit to throwing substantial money at the period although it is tempting to buy them just to put in a cupboard as an investment, because at some point, I think they will become as classic as the Britains lead figures. I imagine that the apparent demise of the superb Italieri Napoleonic cavalry is representive of the lack of sales, and they may be some of the best animated cavalry figures ever made in 1/32nd.
Future projects are paid for by sales of current products. If current products aren't selling, there won't be future products.
Hatblogger,
are current products not selling well??
@dirk, sales of the last releases have been disappointing.
It's a shame that the sales of the last releases were disappointing but I understand the economic circumstances. I'll buy the actual and future ones and hope to support you a little bit.
What I'm really looking forward would be the Austrian Infantry, Command and Artillery which would fill a big gap in the Nap Wars. Cavalry would also be great.
I wanted to buy the 1:32 "Russians" (action & marching) directly from Hät, but, my computer totally crashed & all my emails were "lost" & this just before I went for 6 weeks abroad...Is it still possible?
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